Game On: Achieving Wellness Through Pickleball and Injury Prevention
August 27, 2024 | Episode 23
Producer’s Note: The following is an AI-generated transcript of The Wellness Conversation, an OhioHealth Podcast
SPEAKERS: Dr. Tosino, Lindsey Gordon, Amy Bacher, Marcus Thorpe
Lindsey Gordon 00:13
If you immediately associate a phrase like stay out of the kitchen with a paddle ball court instead of your oven and refrigerator, you've likely drank the pickleball juice. Yep, we're talking all about that sport you've heard all about by now, Pickleball. I'm Lindsay Gordon here with Marcus Thorpe and on this episode of the Wellness Conversation, we're joined by resident physician CJ Tosino and Amy Bacher from 'Pickle and Chill' in Columbus to help us ace this space and paddle our way to wellness. Welcome CJ and Amy, thanks for being with us.
Amy Bacher 00:44
Thank you Lindsay, thank you Marcus.
Dr. Tosino 00:46
Yeah, thanks to both you guys. Really happy to be here.
Marcus Thorpe 00:47
We're super glad to have you too. This is going to be a great, great episode. We're pumped about it. We've been talking about wanting to do an episode like this for quite some time. Pickleball is everywhere, so Amy, let's start with you. What is it about the sport that everybody seems to love?
Amy Bacher 01:05
I think what's great about pickleball is everyone can play. I play with my mom and I play with my kids, so it's fun for all ages. It is also not a big endurance sport. The court is relatively small. Actually, four pickleball courts fit in a tennis court, to give you a size range. And it's social. So, a lot of community. It's rare when you go to an open play on the pickleball courts that you're playing with the same people, you're meeting tons of new friends, like I said, from all age brackets. So, it really builds a lot of community, which I think is super special about the sport.
Marcus Thorpe 01:45
It's a blast. I mean, we picked it up a couple of years ago. I have currently a 14- and 11-year-old, but you're right, my kids didn't know anything. They knew tennis, but they had no idea what pickleball was. We got on the court, I explained it a little bit, and boom, we are off and running, and they still love it and still ask, "can we go play pickleball?" it's easy to pick up and it's easy to play.
Amy Bacher 02:08
Totally, there's a couple key nuances to the rules. You know, things that you have to learn about the serve, about the scoring, that usually trips people up to start, but once you get the hang of it, super easy and super fun.
Lindsey Gordon 02:23
I love when the score gets to be, like an area code. I don't know why. It just makes me so happy, like, if I get anyway, it's just so funny. It's, it's one of those weird things. CJ, do you enjoy playing pickleball? I mean, you're a former athlete yourself, too, and now you're in the sports medicine space. What is it about pickleball that you enjoy?
Dr. Tosino 02:43
Yeah, so I think what's really nice is just how easy it is to get out there. I mean, obviously I'm in my last year residency, but I think about these last three years of medical residency and how little time we have to socialize. So, when it's nice out, or even when it's not right, I think it's awesome to know that there are so many courts available. And also, like Amy brought up, I think it's awesome that you just meet so many different people. And I even have had some competitors that I've played against come see me as patients in the office afterwards, thankfully not for injuries, just because they need a new doc. But it's a really cool space. And my dad played tennis when he was younger, growing up, and he tried to get me to play tennis, but baseball seemed to kind of went out there, but pickleball seemed to be the way that I was able to get on a court.
Lindsey Gordon 03:29
How common are pickleball injuries? You mentioned, you'll see those competitors come in the office for other reasons, but do you see pickleball injuries?
Dr. Tosino 03:37
So, I'd say, I mean, pickle injuries, definitely, very common. Now, if they come to the office, I would say that's somewhat the more kind of serious injury that, you know, the patient can't deal with on their own. You know, I think when we think about injuries on a court, it's a lot of lateral movement, it's a lot of stop, start, quick stuff. So, you know, you always worry about ankle injuries, a lot of like ankle sprains and twisting motions like that. Also too, just like hamstrings and quads. You know, I was going to tell a story about my dad, unfortunately, tearing both his hamstrings during a pickleball match. He looked like he got tased. You know, those videos where people like, you know, go like, limp. But one of the funnier things I ever seen, but also, I had to kind of rush to his aid. But those types of injuries are definitely common. You know, you think about also racket sports. You worry about extensor and flexor muscles in your forearm, and that's more so overuse. So if you got somebody that's been playing all summer and out of nowhere, they just start getting some, you know, some pain in their forearms. You might see them in the office for that too.
Marcus Thorpe 04:37
CJ for those people who maybe aren't in as good a shape as I am, and they want to get into this, if you've seen me, you know, I'm not, but let's talk about ways to kind of get your body ready for something like this. You know, we talk about any sport or anything you're doing. We don't want you just to start from square zero and try to go 100 miles an hour with this pickleball sport that everybody's seems to love and everybody can pick up, which is cool. What would you suggest people doing to make sure they avoid at least some of those quick, early injuries?
Dr. Tosino 05:06
I mean, honestly, before you really get into a game, I think just like practicing and getting some vollying in so you at least understand, like, the metrics of the court itself, as well as the movements that you might be doing without even thinking about it, right? I think that the worry that we have sometimes is that, you know, somebody's like, oh, like, my friends asked me to go play pickleball. I've never played before. I went on the court, and then I felt something pop, right? So I think, you know, at least getting yourself ready and preparing for what you might, you know, actually endure or experience on the court. That's important as well, as you know, before you actually go to play, you know, that day, just getting a little stretch in, maybe even a little bit of, you know, warm up in, you know, try to just get, like, all those muscles activated and stimulated so that when you need them, you know, when you got that game point on the line, that match point that you can, you know, you can obviously take advantage.
Lindsey Gordon 05:53
We talked a little bit too about how this is so accessible to anyone. That's what makes it such a great family sport. You can all do it together. Amy, you mentioned your mom plays and at 'Pickle and Chill'. You probably see all sorts of people from all over, all different age groups. I mean, can you talk more about that, just about how accessible this sport is?
Amy Bacher 06:16
Yeah, it's an inexpensive sport, so I think that does make it accessible to all different demographics. You know, we range from having social parties, and again, where people love to socialize around the sport, but also hosting, like corporate events and team building, we have other athletic teams come in. I do think it's funny to see CJ's point. You know, a lot of former athletes, and I think you think you're capable of doing some things and getting to some balls that maybe you're not capable of anymore, and that competitive spirit, you know, drums up, maybe some injuries that weren't necessary. But we host youth camps. We have adult camps with our Pickleball pro at our club. We have indoor outdoor courts. So courts are running from six in the morning until, you know, 11 o'clock at night. So and you only really need Pickleball is mostly played in doubles, so you only need to find three other people if you want to go out and get a game, which I think you know, is different than the team sports I played growing up. But, and again, you can grab your mom, to your kid, to your neighbor, and everybody's able to have a little bit of fun.
Marcus Thorpe 07:28
For those who are brand new to the sport, Amy talk a little bit about what it looks like to play a pickleball game, right? I think people are knowing a little bit more about it, but there might be some people who don't even understand how the game starts and how it goes. Can you explain just real quick, the basics of pickleball?
Amy Bacher 07:45
Sure. Yeah. I think a lot of people get intimidated because they see people slamming and smashing the ball coming out on the court, and the court's really small, so really at the highest level, the finesse and strategy is really fun, and that's where I feel like I've learned now, I'm a certified pickleball instructor as well, so I teach a lot of our classes at 'Pickle and Chill'. But what makes it super fun is, you know, trying to figure out the chess match of the game on a really small court. So you'll hear, I think Pickleball has the best vocabulary of any sport ever, too. You'll hear words like dinking and staying out of the kitchen, and you know, things that make you really have to think that you can't smash the ball on your opponent. So it is a great combination of tennis, ping pong, you know, racquetball, but again, mostly played doubles. There is singles, but mostly played doubles. So you have that camaraderie of playing with a teammate and strategizing, trying to find the spots on the court to hit the ball. So I think that's really fun as well. Serves are only underhand, yeah, so and each player on the team only gets one serve. Your team gets two serves. So that's the funny part about the scoring. The third number in a score is the server on the team. So you have your score first, the opponent's score second, and then the server. So like Lindsay was mentioning earlier, you'll hear scores like 411 and 911, you know, 321, we see blast off. So, you know, there's different, you know, it just keeps it fun and light.
Lindsey Gordon 09:17
There's never going to be a 614, unfortunately. Sometimes I get 781, which is my hometown, I get so excited. There you go. And that means it's a close match too, right? And, oh, explain what it takes to win.
Amy Bacher 09:30
So, a pickleball game is typically played till 11, and you win by two in the sport, and it is side out scoring, so you're only scoring in pickleball when you're serving, okay? So I think when, when I started to compete, you know, that's kind of the first thing. You only want a partner who's going to be able to get their serve in consistently. So, if I'd pick any skill in pickleball to master first, it would be the serve.
Lindsey Gordon 09:54
That makes sense. I think there's a lot of situational awareness that's required to, you know, knowing where your partner is, if they're up, if they're back, knowing when to let a ball go. That is something I don't know. I'm the one that's like I do the big air whip.
Amy Bacher 10:09
"If it's high let it fly"
Lindsey Gordon 10:12
I like that. I'm going to remember that it hurts when you miss the ball.
Amy Bacher 10:16
Yes, terrors for sure. And again, the beauty of the sport you know, is you're always playing with someone different. Yeah, it's rare, unless you enter a tournament that you're playing with your same partner. So then again, figuring out that communication and the strategy with a new partner against two new opponents is a really fun way, and it's typically a two hour slot you're playing pickleball. That's the average time frame.
Marcus Thorpe 10:42
CJ, let's talk about kind of recovery afterwards. And look, we don't want to scare people. We're talking about injuries here like this is not one of those sports that you're always going to see an injury. It's not football, it's not ice hockey, where people are constantly colliding each other. There's injuries from time to time, but we want to make sure people understand this is a pretty safe sport if you're doing it right and you're stretching properly. Let's talk about the recovery after maybe a two hour session. What would you suggest to make sure people have that longevity?
Dr. Tosino 11:11
Definitely, I mean, and I think that this varies right among competitor I think, like, if you have a younger competitor that you know, can just, you know, rebound and go back and play, you know, 20 more games the next day. It's a little bit different than, I mean, even myself waking up a little bit more sore than other years of my life. But, you know, I think big things, hydration. I think after you're playing, especially when you're playing too just making sure you're hydrating, getting those muscles, you know, the hydration they need, stretching afterwards, yes and no. I mean, I think there's pluses and minuses to that, but obviously too. I mean, if you did have even a slight tweak or felt something on a, you know, a missed ball or, you know, maybe ran into your partner, or something, you know, obviously general anti inflammatory are always fine, obviously trying not to take too much, but, you know, making sure that if you need some Advil, some, you know, Aleve, or even some Tylenol. I think that those all help too.
Lindsey Gordon 12:02
That makes a lot of sense. I was talking with my husband about this podcast when we were planning for it. And his parents are huge. They are like big pickleballers. I mean, they go every weekend, actually, most days of the week they're playing. And he worries, you know, are they pushing it too far if they strain a muscle and then try to get back on the court the next day. For them, the social piece is what's so important, right? That's why they're out there. But how do you know when you need another day to recover? You know is it, can you return to the court too quickly? Depending on your maybe your physical fitness level, your age, that sort of thing.
Dr. Tosino 12:41
I think that that's also too just something, there's a fine line, right? And I think we all ride it in different, you know, walks of life, you know? I think something that's important is just knowing your own body, right? If you have you know past history of injuries or surgeries even, that you know that you've had done in the past, it's just knowing when to say when, right? And unfortunately, yes, some of us find that out the hard way, but I do think that if you're just starting out right, like, if you're just like a rookie novice playing pickleball, maybe not, you know, playing a bunch of matches in a row and consecutive days, maybe giving yourself a little bit of time to rest, but building up that endurance, right, like in any sport, or even in running, right, where, like, eventually you can get to that marathon Right. Like, you can, you can be playing multiple games, matches, tournaments, whatever you want to do. But I do think it is something that's slow to go right. Like, kind of just, like, ease it in. Don't feel like, you know, you can just play 10 matches, you know, in two days, and feel like, you know, Superman the next day.
Marcus Thorpe 13:37
Yeah, Amy, I will say, you know, when these new sports, whatever the hot sport is at the time come around, you start to wonder, how does this thing have shelf life? How does it continue to grow and evolve in people and pickleball? When it first came out, I was like, this will be here and gone tomorrow. It hasn't been. I mean, it not only has it sustained, it is growing leaps and bounds. Why do you think everybody seems to be drawing to it? You mentioned the social aspect of it, but you have to really like the sport too to want to come and keep doing it all the time. And people really are.
Amy Bacher 14:12
Yeah, I think it's fun to get better, right? And you're starting as a casual social player, and then you feel a little bit of the competitive nuances of the game. And, you know, it catches. I do think, you know, having the doubles part of it, it's fun to play, like with a team. This is my prediction. I think in five years, it could be a college sport, or a lot of colleges that now have club teams. And I've heard like over 100 students will show up to go out for the club team, you know, and only a certain amount can travel or play at a time. But you're right. It is a hot sport. I've seen it on ESPN, and you know, we're hosting tournaments up at 'Pickle, and Chill' all the time with pro athletes and amateur athletes. So it's just when you watch the pros and you kind of see like, okay. And again, it's not, you know, you're not moving that much that it's impossible to do as you continue to age. But I think it's caught when with the younger athletes and you can continue to play. My son's a golfer, and I'm, you know, jealous he started so early, because he can continue to play his whole life, you know. And I think that's true of pickleball, too, in that setting. And I think that's why it has so much traction, and it's going to continue to get bigger and bigger.
Marcus Thorpe 15:28
It's interesting to see even some of the old tennis pros have picked it up. And you see, Andre Agassi and some of these other men and women that, you know, won all of these amazing championships that have really embraced the sport, put it on television, which obviously grows anything if you can do it on television and people can see it and fall in love with it even more. I think it's on the right trajectory to really be one of those huge, huge sports moving forward.
Amy Bacher 15:53
Oh, definitely. Our owner at pivot and chill, David Cass. He was a former tennis player at the University of Michigan. The facility itself was the former indoor tennis facility of Ohio State. So those courts have been converted all into pickleball courts.
Marcus Thorpe 16:09
It's a cool indoor space. I mean, it's bright, it's alive, it's neat. I mean, it's it's really set up nicely for people to come in and feel comfortable from day one, which is really nice.
Lindsey Gordon 16:19
It's one of those sports too, that's fun to watch. Like, if you're on the sidelines, if you go with a group of five people and you're rotating, you're not like feeling left out and bummed, sure you can watch and still be fully engaged.
Amy Bacher 16:31
Yeah, and Marcus, our identity at 'Pickle and Chill' has been this awesome graffiti mural that we have with all the pickleball verbiage and slang intertwined and mix into it. So I think that creates just the fun vibe when you when you walk in, it's awesome.
Lindsey Gordon 16:48
Oh my gosh. And people do get so competitive.
Amy Bacher 16:50
Yeah, absolutely.
Marcus Thorpe 16:52
I do. It's not hard to you get into it, right?
Lindsey Gordon 16:57
It's hard to also when you're playing with folks who've been playing for a while, and they are pretty good, and they have to, kind of like, take a step back and be like, you know, explaining the rules. A little hand holding here, remember you got to be up, remember you got to be back. You know, I can see it being a little frustrating in that way.
Marcus Thorpe 17:13
But yeah, we did a work event with the Media Relations Team, and we had four people, and I'm not sure how many of us have really played, but no kidding, within like, 20 minutes, everybody knew what they were doing. The brand new people were calling out the numbers and the serves and everything and like that. I mean, you just pick it up, but you don't have to work very hard on it. It comes pretty quick.
Amy Bacher 17:34
I think, because of the social aspect and just the community, people are super inclusive and, you know, very tolerant initially, because you know you're going to pick it up, and you want to keep people in the sport and coming back, and you know, people are smiling and having a great time, so it makes it really fun.
Lindsey Gordon 17:50
That's so great. Is there anything that you want to provide this question is for both of you, Amy, we can start with you that you want to provide the listeners with if they're thinking about picking up a paddle and learning to play. Like, what would your message be to that, that listener?
Amy Bacher 18:07
My message is just be to try, and I think, be open to meeting new people and and the coaching aspect of it, but I think there is a little intimidation. If you've never played tennis or a racket or paddle sport, and I never did. And, you know, you just have that background and you want to meet new people. It's a great way to get started. It's really social. And then it can, you can build on it. And, you know, there's a progression of lessons and all that sort of stuff. So, I think, you know, just have the courage to get out and try and I think you find, you'll find the social is just as fun as the sport.
Marcus Thorpe 18:45
CJ, before you answer, Amy, I do want to ask about equipment, like buying equipment. Like, what should you be looking for? If you're a beginner, there's so much out there. You don't want to overspend, you don't want to underspend and go super cheap. What would you suggest for people who maybe are looking to buy equipment in this space?
Amy Bacher 19:01
Well, if you start your journey at pickle and chill, we have paddles and balls for everyone to try, and that's really all you need to play the sport. Some people will wear eyewear when they're playing, but it's not mandatory. And then athletic clothes and court shoes. But as far as buying a paddle, just like any sport, you know, there's all levels of, you know, different types of paddles and expensive paddles to just paddles to get you by, but you can come try. We also have a lot of demo paddles that people will try to use to see what they prefer, what they like. So, you know, you can start by trying out paddles, and you can just kind of progress up the chain to what you see fit for yourself. Paddles with control paddles, with power you know, may lend to what type of player you are.
Marcus Thorpe 19:44
Gotcha. CJ, for folks who are listening to this podcast, what would you suggest as they kind of move forward in their pickleball journey?
Dr. Tosino 19:53
I think it's, you know, first and foremost, just surrounding yourself with people that you enjoy being around, right? And I think that that also comes with the space. Nice, right? Like, if it's 'Pickle and Chill', if it's your local park, you know, places that you know, while, yes, can get competitive, don't have to be tournament style play, right? I think that that's like, the biggest thing about starting out is just going somewhere where you don't feel pressure, you don't feel like, all this stress, like, oh my gosh, I have to do this. Do that. Play like this, play like that. And then also, too, I mean, I think it all just kind of comes down to feeling it out, right. I think it's like, don't just, like, go in there and go 105,000 miles an hour, right? I think it's like, like, like, ease yourself into it. And then once you get in the gameplay, right? And like, you understand, like, the the nuances, right? Like, you can kind of, like, fold those in as you kind of go along in your journey on, you know, playing. But I think it's like, once you really get into it, there's no going back, right? I mean, like, I can say, as a former athlete, like any sport, once you get that competitive itch, it doesn't go away. And, like, you look for other ways to itch it, right? So, I mean, I think that's like with camps and classes and, you know, trying to get a coach or new equipment, right. Like, those are all things that come along the process. But it's all about just taking that first step. Like Amy said, it's like, just go out and play. I think that that's like the most important thing. Obviously, you know, my doctor hats on now say safely. Go out and play safely. And, you know, obviously, you know, "failing to prepare is preparing to fail". It's what my dad always told me. So making sure you got plenty, you know, of water if you're outside, maybe get some sunscreen, you know. And also, too, just know how to recover.
Lindsey Gordon 21:26
Yeah, that's awesome. Well, thank you both so much for all the talk about pickleball and getting started, or whether you've mastered it and want to learn a little bit more. I feel like there's a lot to take away from this episode, every episode of the Wellness Conversation, we love to get to know you a little bit better and ask some fun questions. So are you ready for a fun round?
Marcus Thorpe 21:49
So if you could play sport against or maybe alongside a famous athlete, what sport would it be? And who would it be?
Amy Bacher 21:57
Well, without a doubt, at this very moment, it would be Caitlin Clark, the way she's changed the game. And as a female athlete, I love her intensity on the court. I love what she's done for the game of women's basketball, but women's sports overall, I also would love putting her in a pickleball position where maybe it's like, okay, slightly comfortable, uncomfortable, and to see how long it would take to, you know, figure it out and get to the next step. So, hands down at this moment, that would be my choice.
Marcus Thorpe 22:26
She would have her game face on no matter what. She's a beast. I love watching her play. CJ?
Dr. Tosino 22:32
You know, my baseball heart being a former baseball player, and I might get lost in translation here with the player I'd probably play with, because he's way back in the day, but I probably want to be playing in the outfield with Roberto Clemente. He was my favorite player of all time, you know. I mean, obviously, such an awesome human being, let alone one of probably the best baseball players, you know, in baseball history. But if I had to just say, like, right now in this moment, I probably want to get on a basketball court with LeBron. Just throw him a couple lobs. No one feels like to get some assist to the king. Yeah, you know, being a Cleveland boy, and be able to say Cleveland, this is for you with them, would be pretty cool.
Marcus Thorpe 23:05
I noticed you say you didn't want to guard Lebron James.
Dr. Tosino 23:08
I don't want to be underneath, you know, the basket over him. That would be no way.
Lindsey Gordon 23:14
That's so funny. There was an old show, Pros versus Joe's, but that's what I was thinking of when we were coming up with these questions. And Amy, you played lacrosse and field hockey. Those are your backgrounds. And CJ, you played baseball. That's primarily in football. It's primarily your background, if you could. I think in that show, they would take an athlete and they would switch sports with that athlete. Who would you? Who would you do that with? And what sport would it be?
Dr. Tosino 23:41
Geez, I mean, if I could be in any space, I mean, honestly, just being where I was in my career with baseball, I would love to just get in the batter's box and go against, you know, one of the top pitchers that today. I mean, maybe Otani, if his elbow was okay. I would love to just see what it's like to, you know, hopefully doesn't rock me in the side of my ribs with, like, a 98 minor fastball, but just to see what it's like to, you know, be in a pro batter's box, and actually, you know, see how fast that thing's flying.
Marcus Thorpe 24:08
Yeah, or like, a Roger Clemens or Randy Johnson, or something.
Amy Bacher 24:13
I'd have to tug on my heart strings a little bit here and go with my kids. So, I have a son who's going to play golf in college, and then a daughter who plays competitive water polo. And I think, you know, it's going two different ways. When I watch them play for him, what I enjoy, it's a lot of patience strategy, and you can spend four hours together playing around a golf so that gives you a lot of time. And then you watch the powerful water polo game that are six-minute quarters. So, it's so fast and quick and just a sport that when I try to describe to people, you know, what she does in the water, all the treading and how she shoots the ball, that's the size of a volleyball, you know, while she's treading water. You know, I'd play with them, and I'd want to trade with them. I have. I've played a lot of golf, you know, my son is way better, but I haven't played water polo with my daughter, so I don't know if I could hang at all.
Lindsey Gordon 25:11
She sounds like one tough cookie, because water polo is no joke, no joke. Oh.
Marcus Thorpe 25:16
Pickleball is such a unique name. But if you had a chance to rename pickleball? Oh, it's a good question. What would you do? What would you call it?
Amy Bacher 25:24
Well, for me and maybe CJ, you can relate to this. It's like wiffle tennis ball, so, but the ball for me, I would call it that, yeah, and it's not a racket, it's, it is a paddle, yeah? So, you know, that's where the tennis kind of differentiates. But the wiffle ball is like, such a unique component of the game. The Pickle was actually the guy who invented it. I think that was his dog. My dog's name is Pickles, not because of pickleball. We rescued him, and he came with the name, Mr. Pickles. But pickles was the inventor's dog's name.
Lindsey Gordon 26:01
Oh my gosh, I had no idea.
Marcus Thorpe 26:03
That's what you get when you come to the Wellness Conversation, you get everything!
Lindsey Gordon 26:08
Oh, that was a great question. Marcus!
Marcus Thorpe 26:09
Well, you guys have been great. This has been a really fun episode, and we encourage everybody go to 'Pickle and Chill', go to your local park. Do what you can stretch, make sure that you get the right hydration. And we, thank you both for joining us. It's been a really great episode.
Amy Bacher 26:27
Thank you so much for having us. It was really fun. I'll come back anytime.
Dr. Tosino 26:30
Yes, no, seriously. Like, awesome opportunity, and I can't wait to get to 'Pickle and Chill' sometime and probably make a fool out of myself.
Amy Bacher 26:37
I'll take you on CJ.
Marcus Thorpe 26:42
Well we thank you for joining us for this episode of the Wellness Conversation and OhioHealth podcast. Before we wrap up today, we want to invite you to join us on all of our major social channels. You can stay up to date on any new episodes or other health and wellness topics. And if you're looking for more information on OhioHealth services and locations, just go to ohiohealth.com
Lindsey Gordon 26:59
The information in this episode will also be available in written form at the OhioHealth wellness blog. You can find that@blog.ohiohealth.com thank you for joining us and be sure to subscribe as we continue our exploration of important health and wellness topics with OhioHealth experts.